2018 Ninja 400

polokid69

New Member
I also have been impressed by the Kawasaki 400 but I think it just looks like every other Ninja and with the KTM we have something unique even with the small issues we face. The test I read in Sport Rider had lots of good things to say about the KTM and placed it very close to the Ninja. I've had Ninja 250's, and 600's and have found the KTM RC390 to really be a blast to ride both in town and in the highway. I recently rode mine over 500 round trip to the MotoGP in Austin, Tx and really had a blast! For the record, from what I've read, the Ninja is not made in Japan but in India, correct me if I'm wrong. I know my 250 Ninja's were made in Indonesia for what ever that's worth.

https://www.sportrider.com/which-small-sportbike-should-you-buy-in-2018
 

Chuditch

Member
I really like Ari Henning and his racing speaks for itself but I found his criticisms of the 2015 RC390 around it's fickle need to be serviced and 'breaking down'....., well, I thought he was was justified as a others were also experiencing the same issues. Then one day I found myself reading his blog and flicked back to when he first got the bike, with something like under 70 miles on it. I expected he would have run it in... but no, instead he whacked it on the dyno and ran it hard to get a max HP reading, then he just takes it to the track and starts riding/racing it. He admitted he never ran it in and that this is not what he would do ordinarily, but for some reason known only to himself, he decided to just start racing it with less than 100miles on the clock. Now, if you race then you are pushing the bike more than you would on the road, so higher maintenance is to be expected.... But in subsequent reviews, targeted at an average consumer audience, he talks of these mechanical failures but completely neglects to mention he never ran the bike in, took it down to the track and thrashed it, never changed the oil until over 2000 miles! I kind of felt a little misled as he only mentions this here but in subsequent interviews not at all. Not exactly accurate reviewing values...

https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/...nces-on-2015-ktm-rc390-motorcyclist-doin-time
 
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isaac_

New Member
I really like Ari Henning and his racing speaks for itself but I found his criticisms of the 2015 RC390 around it's fickle need to be serviced and 'breaking down'....., well, I thought he was was justified as a others were also experiencing the same issues. Then one day I found myself reading his blog and flicked back to when he first got the bike, with something like under 70 miles on it. I expected he would have run it in... but no, instead he whacked it on the dyno and ran it hard to get a max HP reading, then he just takes it to the track and starts riding/racing it. He admitted he never ran it in and that this is not what he would do ordinarily, but for some reason known only to himself, he decided to just start racing it with less than 100miles on the clock. Now, if you race then you are pushing the bike more than you would on the road, so higher maintenance is to be expected.... But in subsequent reviews, targeted at an average consumer audience, he talks of these mechanical failures but completely neglects to mention he never ran the bike in, took it down to the track and thrashed it, never changed the oil until over 2000 miles! I kind of felt a little misled as he only mentions this here but in subsequent interviews not at all. Not exactly accurate reviewing values...

https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/...nces-on-2015-ktm-rc390-motorcyclist-doin-time

It makes no difference whether you break in a motor on the dyno or slowly on the streets. What does make a difference is the oil used to break it in. Conventional oil will seat the oil rings better because it’s not as slippery.

I’ve broken in several motors on the dyno no problem. I would have done the same to the KTM but I got mine with almost 2000 miles on it.
 

Chuditch

Member
Yes but he didn't run it in on the Dyno either. He says he didn't run it in. That's my point. Not how it might have been run in, Dyno or otherwise.
 

vulgr

New Member
Yes but he didn't run it in on the Dyno either. He says he didn't run it in. That's my point. Not how it might have been run in, Dyno or otherwise.

There are different theories on running a race bike in. I have an R3 that was taken to the race track brand new with 0 miles. There are plenty of racers that choose this method
 

Chuditch

Member
There are different theories on running a race bike in. I have an R3 that was taken to the race track brand new with 0 miles. There are plenty of racers that choose this method

Noted, I admit I haven't run into any people who do a run in like that, but I am fine with accepting that it happens.

My point, which seems to be continually lost on people here is that Ari admits that this is not how he would usually treat a new bike, he himself says he would do a run in, but he didn't.

For a consumer, like your average new bike rider choosing a bike, it isn't accurate reviewing to talk about all the 'flaws' and 'problems' he experienced with the bikes head gasket blowing etc in later vids, without also adding the caveat beforehand, that he didn't follow the manufacturers recommendations around running the bike in. If he did that, well I wouldn't have bothered posting about it.
 

isaac_

New Member
Noted, I admit I haven't run into any people who do a run in like that, but I am fine with accepting that it happens.

My point, which seems to be continually lost on people here is that Ari admits that this is not how he would usually treat a new bike, he himself says he would do a run in, but he didn't.

For a consumer, like your average new bike rider choosing a bike, it isn't accurate reviewing to talk about all the 'flaws' and 'problems' he experienced with the bikes head gasket blowing etc in later vids, without also adding the caveat beforehand, that he didn't follow the manufacturers recommendations around running the bike in. If he did that, well I wouldn't have bothered posting about it.

Sure he did...he mentioned it in the first video! If the audience didn’t watch the video with the caveat then...

Kind of like a footnote in a book. Mentioned once and moved on.

But again... why would it matter? I don’t think method of breaking in a bike would make a difference. Head gaskets were going to go regardless. It was a matter of timing. Perhaps he accelerated the cycle... I think plenty people here had issues without tracking bikes.
 

Formula390

Supporting Vendor
Vendor
Country flag
I'm in the MotoMan "Run it in HARD!!!" camp myself. I rode the bike from the dealership in San Antonio to the ranch here in Austin and was being run up through the rev range from idle to redline the whole time. I hit the limiter quite a number of times on that ride. If you want a bike that makes power, that is what you do. You seat those rings in and you seat 'em HARD by running that motor in like you stole it. You only have a certain number of miles to get the rings seated. After that, however good they are run in, is how good that motor is going to be. Everyone had their own opinion here, but the Dyno doesn't lie. Run it in HARD, and you'll make the most power. Manufacturers recommend the slow break in process for a number of reasons, but the biggest one is they want a motor that is NOT making the most power and is going to gently break everything in so that is there is a problem, it wears in and will most likely still be OK. If there is a problem with the motor, using the MotoMan method, you're going to find out, and fast. Ari breaking the motor in this way had NOTHING to do with his popping a head gasket. His not changing the oil right away also, nothing to do with the headgasket. The "always wrenching on it" problem was also, always the head gasket. That's what these bikes do in a racing trim... eat head gaskets. KTM has updated the parts, due to a lot of warranty repairs, and the new heads (and I think cylinders) are being made in Austria now. As far as I've heard, this has resolved the head gasket problems. Chad or Paxton might say otherwise tho. They are the ones who have to deal with head gasket eating motors. I just keep ya'll in suspension, CNC parts, and bodywork. :) LOL
 

Chuditch

Member
I must be a fussy pussy then... Lol. I personally baby a motor for 300 to 500km and then after that, yeah pretty much ride it how I would ride it any way. As already stated in my previous comments, I have no dramas with run ins on dyno, on the road or whatever, you do you and I will I do my stuff, I says. Prefer a run in (however you do it) and timely oil changes tho, :rolleyes:.

I don't see the point of rehashing my main points over and over again, however, if I was marketing my motorcycles that I built and offered my latest edition bike, I would feel a little put out that my all new bike was being judged on the merits of the previous bike without the disclosure of 'oh yeah haha I also ignored the manufacturers recs on that older bike', as the article/vid is targeted at the beginner/small displacement audience, not just racers.

It just felt that he kind of grudgingly gave up that KTM 'says they have addressed the HG issues.. lets see.' I bought the 2107 RC new rather than save on a 2015 (which is a good bike too, some might say better) in the hope of avoiding the HG curse.

Obviously, not too many supporters of my point commenting here but that is ok, I can still take on board other's opinions and maybe learn something too. Like I didn't know that the heads and cylinders were being made in Austria... though I had heard that they were improved from 2017 models on.

Any how, nothing against Ari, I like him and his vids etc, like a lot of RC riders, his vids and his success racing the RC was one of the motivators to get an RC for me.
 

Tom

New Member
************After modding, researching the RC390, and riding in packs of multiple bikes (ninja 400 included). The below comments are no longer applicable.************** The RC390 is a true race bike extremely neutered to be street legal.

I honestly wish I went with the ninja 400 they were trying to talk me into when I got the rc390. I was quoted $4600 for the rc390 which was a huge factor, but also my previous experiences with a friend's ninja back in high-school left me thinking anything in their brand without an "R" was slower than a Honda civic.

These new 400s are nothing to sneeze at. They are seriously de-tuned from the factory, and are easily re-flashed (no piggy back, no other mods) to 50 at the rear wheel for under $400. The are very light and have an aggressive riding position that is much more comfortable than our bikes. The build quality is also much better.

If I had known of this, and all of the reliability issues on the rc390, I would have taken the 400 ABS model. With the $800 "kawi" credit off the sticker price I would have been in the same ball park as the RC. =(



The sad truth is, our bikes were designed to be marketed to 140lb squids in south east asia and to comply with beginner rider laws in the EU. The ninja 400 was Kawasaki showing off their wiener size for the small bike segment, with all other regulations and targeted audiences as an afterthought.
 
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Chuditch

Member
I honestly wish I went with the ninja 400 they were trying to talk me into when I got the rc390. I was quoted $4600 for the rc390 which was a huge factor, but also my previous experiences with a friend's ninja back in high-school left me thinking anything in their brand without an "R" was slower than a Honda civic.

These new 400s are nothing to sneeze at. They are seriously de-tuned from the factory, and are easily re-flashed (no piggy back, no other mods) to 50 at the rear wheel for under $400. The are very light and have an aggressive riding position that is much more comfortable than our bikes. The build quality is also much better.

If I had known of this, and all of the reliability issues on the rc390, I would have taken the 400 ABS model. With the $800 "kawi" credit off the sticker price I would have been in the same ball park as the RC. =(



The sad truth is, our bikes were designed to be marketed to 140lb squids in south east asia and to comply with beginner rider laws in the EU. The ninja 400 was Kawasaki showing off their wiener size for the small bike segment, with all other regulations and targeted audiences as an afterthought.

Hindsight is a wonderful place to think of what we might have done.... I read the prices for the kwaka 400 here in Australia now, they are around $1500 more than I would have paid for my 2017 RC390 if I paid the going rate back then in early 2018 when I bought it.... I paid less than the going rate... so the purchase price was a big motivator. Here In Australia, both the ninja 400 and the RC390 are excellent bang for buck rides, but you can buy a 2017 RC for almost $2000 less than the Kawasaki. Only thing is, there was no Kawasaki ninja 400 when I bought my bike, it wasn't released.
I was looking at secondhand Superdukes and Triumph Street triples at the same time I was looking at my little RC. I'm still glad I chose the RC. It grew on me, I grew on it. I'm faster on it half a year later than I should have any rights to be, being a big 200lb+ guy. It taught me heaps, when I thought I knew stuff. I am just about to go for my open license in the near future, so will be able to ride whatever I want legally very soon. Funnily enough, this was the time I thought I would be keen to let the little KT go, yet that thought isn't driving me nearly as much as I thought it would. Not quite done yet with it.

I guess if you want a ninja 400, you could just save your $ and sell off the RC, it's not a lot to make up the difference, by your own admission?
 

John390

New Member
I read a review where 3 guys rode '18 RC390, Ninja 400 and CBR500r on roads, streets and Laguna Seca. They also had a R3 at Laguna Seca and found it to be totally outclassed.

They said that the bigger Honda was the nicest on the street and more of a "gentleman" but totally outclasses on the track or in the canyons. not even close

They said that the Ninja 400 was more comfortable than the KTM for longer commutes, with its taller grip height etc

They said that the RC was noticably better on the track. And as much as we say our suspension isn't that good, they all stated that it was noticeably better than what was on the Kawi.

They all agreed that the brakes were quite a bit better on the KTM as well.

The engines were a tossup with one picking the Kawi, one the KTM and one undecided. I personally like the engine of the Ninja better as its just more refined and powerful.

The thing that sold the RC for me was that its narrower. I like a light, small bike. I think maybe it would be nice if it had a twin, maybe a narrow angle V-twin, to keep the bike narrow, but thats it. I'd love to have a nice sounding bike. Probably the one thing that would make me want a different bike.

Also, at the time, all the dealers in my area wouldn't do any deals on the '18 Ninja 400, at all. $6300. Period. I got my brand new, 1km on it 2018 KTM RC390 for $4999

$1300 goes a long way.
 
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Tom

New Member
After buying the RC390, really after joining the forum, I was paranoid about all of the gripes and issues people were reporting. Instant buyer's remorse.

But after actually riding my bike and coming to the conclusion of how small the sample size was for people who actually have major issues, I really cant see owning anything else in the small bike sector. Yes, I did become a nut-swinger for the ninja 400 for a brief moment (see previous post in this thread) but after actually researching, it looks like that bike is going through the same teething pains as ours did on the '15-'16 models. The big difference is that KTM is pretty adamant (now) on correcting problems and performing work on bikes outside of the warranty period or with mods.

Remembering how the RC390 and the ninja 400 felt on the show room floor, the 2017 RC390 felt like a much more capable bike for sporty riding. After riding with my friend and trading between my bike and his R6 on some mountain roads, I'm very happy with my purchase. The bike just feels like an extension of your body in the turns.. Ran into a turn too fast? Just apply more counter steering and viola! You just gained several feet for your exit line at your apex. Zero weight shifting of your body, or emergency throttle/brake inputs required.

Now this part is important:
My biggest gripe was the short factory gearing on 1st through 4th for street riding, I didn't realize this is common across all bikes in this class. Due to the torque this motor produces at low RPM, we can easily correct this with a simple sprocket change, and have no ill consequences for tachometer or speedometer readings (cough ninja cough cough) while enjoying a very commuter friendly gearing ratio. With a 41T rear sprocket, you can literally stay in 5th gear from 45 to 75 mph without feeling bogging of the motor during acceleration, and cruising at highway speeds puts you in the 5.5K RPM range with plenty to go before 6th. 1st through 4th are equally as street friendly; 1st takes you up to 30 mph with about 2K left to redline, so the thing isnt a screaming police beacon when starting at a stop light, and throttle inputs are very buffeted by the slipper clutch and low back torque from the gearing. This is all before any sort of power mod is made to the bike.


The suspension for road stuff is comparable to my friend's R6. Unless you have a really good life-insurance policy, you're not going to reach the limits of the stock setup on the street. My friend actually kept wanting to hog my bike on account of "it feels like a fast mountain bike" and the riding position "doesn't feel like a torture rack".

I've been using the bike as a commuter (60 miles per day mostly highway 75+mph) and only fill up every 2 days. I could easily squeeze it down to every 3 days if I didn't squid so much on the fast stretches of highway.

This bike is great for throwing around tight spaces. You can literally toss and lean it at parking lot speeds like you would a bicycle.

I'm sure the ninja 400 will be a great bike after a few iterations and quiet part number changes (just like the rc390 and duke 390) but at this point, the dollar to value ratio on the "17+ KTM bikes at the dealerships is unrivaled. At this point, I'm already at $1K in mods, and plan on much much more. dunno about you guys, but my bike is a keeper.
 
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John390

New Member
fully agreed. the only think I don''t know if I can live with is the exhaust note. Being a single, no matter what you do to it, it still sounds like a single. What I have done has made it better for sure but its still a single.

If I were to get another bike, it would have to be as good or better in every way, AND have a 2, 3 or 4 cylinder engine.
 

Tom

New Member
KTM is one of the chief engine suppliers for moto3. 56hp from a 250cc, regulation limited to 15,500 RPM. They know how to make a good single cylinder. KTM Technologies

The ninja makes roughly the same torque stock for stock, but weighs 370lbs vs the rc390 around 340lbs. However, with a set of wheels, a lithium battery, and some other light weight bits, our bikes are coming in around or under 300lbs. On top of that, a full exhaust, titanium retainers for a higher redline, an upgraded airbox with larger injector, and an exhaust with a good tune and our bikes are making almost the same torque as an r6 or a cbr600rr. The RC390 was severely de-tuned from the factory to meet emissions as well as Europe's laws for new riders. With minor power mods, some light weight components, and a longer ratio rear sprocket, the torque our motors are capable of can easily make up for the hp difference in the twisties vs a 600.
 
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John390

New Member
if they can make 56 from a 250, I want them to punch this one out to 399 and make 65. that wouldn't even be straining it. Hell, I'd take a cool 60 and the bump in torque from displacement and compression.
 

simpletty

Member
Country flag
if they can make 56 from a 250, I want them to punch this one out to 399 and make 65. that wouldn't even be straining it. Hell, I'd take a cool 60 and the bump in torque from displacement and compression.

A couple
of things you fail to realize. They are allowed 8 engines per race season. Each engine cannot exceed 12k euros in price.

So so sure they can make a more powerful engine. But then the reliability goes down and price goes up. Even if they made a 65 hp 399 cv engine it would t be cheap. Drop a 450 from a dirt bike in the frame. You are still limited to the amount of hours run before a rebuild. Everything comes at a cost when making more power. They found a balance point between cost and how long the motor will last and went with it
 

John390

New Member
oh, I dont fail to realise this at all :) I am a Red Seal tech, a long time car guy and decades of experience both building and tuning engines. I get it.

However, all you have to do is look at the 600 class of sport bikes. all the Japanese and Euro 600 class "R" sport bikes make between 110 and 130 hp. Even 2 decades ago, they were making around 100hp. So, lets say 120hp for 600cc for easy math. thats 80hp for 400cc. Thats a tad simplistic, but its also on the conservative side. Some of these bikes make 130 or more.

So, 80hp for 400 cc is totally doable. And even then its a tad on the conservative side. Probably 85-90 would put it up to the same hp/cc as the best 600cc bikes. As you know, there are multitudes of 600cc super sport bikes out there used with 40000, 50000 or more KM on them and still running strongly, if the owners had done their maintenance.

All I am asking for is 60-65hp out of the same displacement. this should be no problem and should be able to last even longer.

Hell, even back in the early 2000s Honda made a 400cc bike that put out 61hp and it was just a CB, not a CBR bike.

And don't get me wrong, I like what KTM have done, its an over achiever for sure. This engine makes 44hp claimed and 30lbs ft. My wifes Rebel 500 is basically 100cc bigger and it only makes 1-2hp more and less than 1fl/lb more. And its a twin.

I'm just saying there is room for improvement.

Also, this engine has been around since what? 2014? its not 4 or more years old. Time for a new one :) gotta keep it fresh
 

simpletty

Member
Country flag
oh, I dont fail to realise this at all :) I am a Red Seal tech, a long time car guy and decades of experience both building and tuning engines. I get it.

However, all you have to do is look at the 600 class of sport bikes. all the Japanese and Euro 600 class "R" sport bikes make between 110 and 130 hp. Even 2 decades ago, they were making around 100hp. So, lets say 120hp for 600cc for easy math. thats 80hp for 400cc. Thats a tad simplistic, but its also on the conservative side. Some of these bikes make 130 or more.

So, 80hp for 400 cc is totally doable. And even then its a tad on the conservative side. Probably 85-90 would put it up to the same hp/cc as the best 600cc bikes. As you know, there are multitudes of 600cc super sport bikes out there used with 40000, 50000 or more KM on them and still running strongly, if the owners had done their maintenance.

All I am asking for is 60-65hp out of the same displacement. this should be no problem and should be able to last even longer.

Hell, even back in the early 2000s Honda made a 400cc bike that put out 61hp and it was just a CB, not a CBR bike.

And don't get me wrong, I like what KTM have done, its an over achiever for sure. This engine makes 44hp claimed and 30lbs ft. My wifes Rebel 500 is basically 100cc bigger and it only makes 1-2hp more and less than 1fl/lb more. And its a twin.

I'm just saying there is room for improvement.

Also, this engine has been around since what? 2014? its not 4 or more years old. Time for a new one :) gotta keep it fresh



You must realize a 4cyl vs a single there really cant be any comparison. 4cyl shorter stroke, faster revs high rpm, less torque more hp up top. Single vibrates, less rpm and more torque, heavier components. To get that single to do what you are asking costs money, that in turn places the cost above what market these bikes were intended to be in. Of course its possible, but do you want to pay the equivalent of what a 600 cc supersport is worth? Getting low grade suspension and not many frills compared to the 600, :I would not be looking at buying one at that price. The current engine setup in this bike is reliable to about 50 hp, I have been told, I managed close to 43 at the rear wheel last year and am in the process of making a few more improvements for the next year, hopefully it will net 49-50. Its not a cheap process to get there either, tuning and parts cost $.
 
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