Need Help Stock injector vs oversize injector with powertronic piggyback ecu

musti

musti

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Hello people,

I seriously need someone's experience an knowledge about the following.

PowerTronic piggyback ecu offers 2 pre-loaded map:
  • Map 1 - Race: Performance gains starting from low-range to mid-range RPM [image attached: map1_fuel1 / map1_ignition1]
map1_fuel1.PNG

map1_ignition1.PNG

  • Map 2 - Race++ : Performance gains starting from low-range to top-range RPM [image attached: map2_fuel2 / map2_ignition2]

map2_fuel2.PNG

map2_ignitiion2.PNG

Looking at the fuel and ignition maps, all I want to know is "will there be any performance gains if I open the air box and install oversized injectors?"

My current setup:
  • Competition Werekes under belly exhaust
  • K&N air filter
  • Stock front sprocket / 42T rear sprocket
  • PowerTronic piggyback ecu
  • Quickshifter
Thank you in advance.
 
1JZSupra

1JZSupra

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What you are looking at is the following:

Map 1
No fueling is added until the throttle body is at 50%. The most fuel was added to the 100% throttle range at the mid RPM band (6500). This is aimed at mid-range power and does nothing to address low-end lean fueling that causes these bikes to stall. Ignition tuning with this map is slightly more aggressive than the other map

Map 2
Fueling is decreased overall by a large amount and shows fuel pulled in the higher RPM band. It also starts to add fuel at a lower throttle percentage than the other map. This map doesn't add as much fueling as MAP 1 does, it actually pulls fuel away where I would want to ensure fuel was rich at the top end. The ignition map is also pretty flat and safe as well.

The high the number, the higher the increase is fuel or ignition being added.

I can tell you right now without a doubt these maps will not be good enough if you add an aftermarket fuel injector. The map I have (Which won't work for you) pulls an absolutely crazy amount of fuel. My entire fuel map is in the negatives in all RPMs and Throttle range. Based on the questions you have asked I would not consider trying to tune your bike with this injector and take it to a place to get it done. I have a means of measuring AFR's and I've been tuning mine for a while.
 
musti

musti

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1JZSupra said:
What you are looking at is the following:

Map 1
No fueling is added until the throttle body is at 50%. The most fuel was added to the 100% throttle range at the mid RPM band (6500). This is aimed at mid-range power and does nothing to address low-end lean fueling that causes these bikes to stall. Ignition tuning with this map is slightly more aggressive than the other map

Map 2
Fueling is decreased overall by a large amount and shows fuel pulled in the higher RPM band. It also starts to add fuel at a lower throttle percentage than the other map. This map doesn't add as much fueling as MAP 1 does, it actually pulls fuel away where I would want to ensure fuel was rich at the top end. The ignition map is also pretty flat and safe as well.

The high the number, the higher the increase is fuel or ignition being added.

I can tell you right now without a doubt these maps will not be good enough if you add an aftermarket fuel injector. The map I have (Which won't work for you) pulls an absolutely crazy amount of fuel. My entire fuel map is in the negatives in all RPMs and Throttle range. Based on the questions you have asked I would not consider trying to tune your bike with this injector and take it to a place to get it done. I have a means of measuring AFR's and I've been tuning mine for a while.
Click to expand...

@1JZSupra
Much appreciate your valuable input.

So here is what happened.

I installed the aftermarket Gray Area Market Oversized Fuel injector and had the bike on the second map [as shown above]

So on every gear, and every rpm band, I felt a punch and power. At no times I felt incapable of pulling away.

DRAWBACK: Once I reach 150'ish kilometer an hour, on 6th gear and full open throttle, I feel that the bike does not bother to go any faster.

I'm contemplating now, whether I should remove the piggyback, and simply leave the oversized injector with open box air filter and competition werkes exhaust and see how that goes.

Your quote about "... I have a means of measuring AFR's and I've been tuning mine for a while."

I am interested to know more and how you do it. Will you be kind enough to share it with me?

Thanks a lot of your contribution.
 
musti

musti

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@1JZSupra

I know I need a dyno to tune for best results. Unfortunately I do not have access to a dyno. Therefore I am trying to tune my bike using all other available means.
 
1JZSupra

1JZSupra

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I honestly don't think you will be able to without a wideband O2 sensor or some means of data logging your runs. The amount of fueling you are going to have to pull is going to be a crazy amount. I would imagine it would just instantly just flood out the cylinder.
 
1JZSupra

1JZSupra

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Do you have the option to add an auto tuner? With Power Commander V you can add an auto tuner and set it for what you want and it'll do the rest. That way you wouldn't need a dyno.
 
musti

musti

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1JZSupra said:
I honestly don't think you will be able to without a wideband O2 sensor or some means of data logging your runs. The amount of fueling you are going to have to pull is going to be a crazy amount. I would imagine it would just instantly just flood out the cylinder.
Click to expand...

I believe flooding does occur, but unfortunately, there is no way for me to determine it.

About an O2 sensor and data logging:
  • I can poke a hole in the header, install a secondary O2 sensor with an AFR for live display
  • Data logging, I have no idea how to do it. I'm not even sure if the powertronic windows application has an option to monitor data from sensors and display it
What I was thinking [which is crazy as it sounds]
  • Buy a windows OS tab with USB
  • Install screen recording software within the tab along with the powertronic windows app
  • IF the powertronic app has an option to view live data from sensors, I would load that screen
  • Connect the tab to the bike and put the tab in my backpack and go for a ride
While I ride, the powertronic software will display the readings and the screen recorder will help me with data logging.
 
musti

musti

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1JZSupra said:
Do you have the option to add an auto tuner? With Power Commander V you can add an auto tuner and set it for what you want and it'll do the rest. That way you wouldn't need a dyno.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, the powertronic unit and wiring harness does not provide an option to connect an auto tuner.

I am aware of the Power Commander 5 and I was, at one time, considering to buy it, but the customs will charge me 45% of the value of the item if I import it. Unless if I can ask someone travelling to bring it with them.
 
musti

musti

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@1JZSupra

Here is the issue to be honest.

I do not know how to operate the powertronic software. I need a mentor to show me and make me familiar with the basics. I will put it my 100% after that. But I have reached a plateau where I cannot move forward as I do not know the abbreviations, terms, readings, meaning of "+1" and "-5" etc

There are not courses available online either where I can learn something.
 
1JZSupra

1JZSupra

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+1 is an increase of +1% of fuel. -5 would be -5% fuel for that one cell. That cell represents the fueling at that intersecting RPM range and throttle position. If you are able to get means of logging you could effectively tune your bike, but it would have to be over time while riding. For the most part you are basically just either adding fuel or removing it.

How much at one time is based on experience and what your AFRs are at the time. If you see that it is very right then you might want to pull a little more than usual and then retest.

Typically speaking I will remove -1% or -2% at a time for fine-tuning if I'm trying to get my AFR's at an optimal amount. You can also blanket remove fuel over the entire fuel range if needed.
 
musti

musti

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1JZSupra said:
+1 is an increase of +1% of fuel. -5 would be -5% fuel for that one cell. That cell represents the fueling at that intersecting RPM range and throttle position. If you are able to get means of logging you could effectively tune your bike, but it would have to be over time while riding. For the most part you are basically just either adding fuel or removing it.

How much at one time is based on experience and what your AFRs are at the time. If you see that it is very right then you might want to pull a little more than usual and then retest.

Typically speaking I will remove -1% or -2% at a time for fine-tuning if I'm trying to get my AFR's at an optimal amount. You can also blanket remove fuel over the entire fuel range if needed.
Click to expand...

Question:
Which lambda sensor and AFR display/gauge would you recommend for a 2015 RC 390?

My second question would be is what numbers should I see on the AFR display? [sorry if I asked this too early, as I still don't have a AFR gauge installed]
 
musti

musti

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@1JZSupra Bro, I forgot to ask you, is the Torque app good?? If I buy the full version of the app, would it help? I have the Bluetooth OBD@ sensor and convertor.
 
1JZSupra

1JZSupra

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AEM makes a good unit. It really depends on the driving conditions. Around 14.8-15 AFR while light load and cruising. And around 13.2-13.4 at WOT.

I use the torque pro app as it allows me to datalog. But I am using custom PIDS that don't work on GEN 2 bikes.
 
musti

musti

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1JZSupra said:
+1 is an increase of +1% of fuel. -5 would be -5% fuel for that one cell. That cell represents the fueling at that intersecting RPM range and throttle position. If you are able to get means of logging you could effectively tune your bike, but it would have to be over time while riding. For the most part you are basically just either adding fuel or removing it.

How much at one time is based on experience and what your AFRs are at the time. If you see that it is very right then you might want to pull a little more than usual and then retest.

Typically speaking I will remove -1% or -2% at a time for fine-tuning if I'm trying to get my AFR's at an optimal amount. You can also blanket remove fuel over the entire fuel range if needed.
Click to expand...

@1JZSupra

Thanks for breaking down what the numbers and value means.

Question:
Did you get to check the ignition timing maps? What do you think about those numbers?
 
1JZSupra

1JZSupra

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I posted my thoughts above in my first post. They aren't anything too crazy, but those numbers are pretty standard from the different tune files I've seen. As long as they aren't overly aggressive I would be concerned with fueling more than anything.
 
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