Michelle
New Member
That is a good idea fitting a manual switch , let us know how you get on , my sleeve was fast on and I did not want to put to much pressure in case I damaged the shaft it self...
Water pump and/or linkage failure
- Thread starter streetfighter
- Start date
Maddog Reynolds
New Member
I got the idea from the CoolAIR switch mod I fitted to the 690. It has to be wired differently on the 390, though. (On 690 it just plugs in between the thermo switch and its cable). Probably easiest to tap in to the relay.
CoolAIR Manual Radiator Fan Switch KTM 690 Duke / Duke R 2008-2017 | eBay
CoolAIR Manual Radiator Fan Switch KTM 690 Duke / Duke R 2008-2017 | eBay
Fasteddy
Member
Sounds like the LC8 engine casting sand all over again...
What's the story here?
Maddog Reynolds
New Member
Sand would explain everything!
Makes me want to fit a water filter into the rad hose, just to check . . .
Makes me want to fit a water filter into the rad hose, just to check . . .
Fasteddy
Member
The early LC8 engines used in the Adventure / SuperDuke, not sure but I think there was a TSB, had issues with casting sand that was left over from the manufacturing process in the water jacket. I am sure there are more details on the forums for those bikes and I will see if I can find them.
On another note, the 2008 450XC-F and similar use a seal that is the correct size and higher quality -
| 77335057000 | SHAFT SEAL RING 12x24x4 |
I have been trying to find a PTFE double lip seal like the one used in the LC8 but no luck so far, it was used in the RC 250 - R Rookie Cup bike but is no longer available.
I have also ordered 2 each OAS-12X24X7-FPMSS from 123Bearing - Online Bearing Expert, This is a seal made of a more durable spec compound with a stainless steel spring.
I believe the only reason for the inside snap ring / lock ring is for assembly during initial manufacturing, I can find no other motorcycle water pump design that uses a seal retainer on the higher pressure side of the seal so I am inclined to install either a 7mm seal of better quality or two of the XC-F seals. At this point I am waiting for parts and once I have them will tear into it and go from there.
Maddog Reynolds
New Member
If there is room behind the impellor, I'm tempted by the 2 XCF seals myself
Fasteddy
Member
If there is room behind the impellor, I'm tempted by the 2 XCF seals myself
From Michelle''s description and pics it sounds like that will work if the ring is deleted. The other mod I am considering is adding a weep hole, there are several bikes that have a small hole through the case between the crankcase seal and the water pump seal. But that is a big step taking a drill bit to the case...
Michelle
New Member
That is a really good idea drilling a weep hole Ed...... I have seen them on other bikes.... I was thinking today ,, IF,, the seal on the engine side was to go bad , I am sure you could drill through it ,, put a screw in it and pull it out the pump side ,, replace it that way... Just a thought ....
....Maddog Reynolds
New Member
A weep hole would be ideal as a tell-tale, if we could find a downhill path to the outside
Maddog Reynolds
New Member
That is a really good idea drilling a weep hole Ed...... I have seen them on other bikes.... I was thinking today ,, IF,, the seal on the engine side was to go bad , I am sure you could drill through it ,, put a screw in it and pull it out the pump side ,, replace it that way... Just a thought
I wondered whether it would come out, but I'm chicken. After you
Fasteddy
Member
I have been studying the pics of the case half in the service manual, there are oil passages and the casting deficit around the balance shaft bearing boss to consider, but it appears there is a path from the front just below center a few mm in from the pump cover surface probably at an angle inward to place the bore end of the path in the proper location.
At this point it is just theory, I will no more once I have it apart on the lift...
At this point it is just theory, I will no more once I have it apart on the lift...
Michelle
New Member
If mine was leaking Maddoggggggg I would , the seals are not seated so you could pull that engine one through if you wanted to ,, well I think so.
I sent fasteddy some pics which I do not have anymore or I would post it ,, but you can clearly see the engine seal.. That is what I would do if it was gone ,, I would not pull my engine out and split it just to replace a seal if there was another way..
Mine is not leaking anymore , well I don,t think so anyway.... I filled my coolant to the top line and it is just under the full line now ,, that is with over 400 miles of riding..
I do like the idea of the weep hole though ,, if you do it Ed ,, lots of pics please because that is something I would like to do.
, the seals are not seated so you could pull that engine one through if you wanted to ,, well I think so.I sent fasteddy some pics which I do not have anymore or I would post it ,, but you can clearly see the engine seal.. That is what I would do if it was gone ,, I would not pull my engine out and split it just to replace a seal if there was another way..
Mine is not leaking anymore , well I don,t think so anyway.... I filled my coolant to the top line and it is just under the full line now ,, that is with over 400 miles of riding..
I do like the idea of the weep hole though ,, if you do it Ed ,, lots of pics please because that is something I would like to do.
Fasteddy
Member
Water pump seals
After some delays I have finished rebuilding my water pump. I ended up using two different types of seals and from all that I have learned about rotary shaft seals I would not use the OEM seals.
The original seal used, part number J760122455, is a single lip seal made form something that is meant to be some type of rubber, I assume.
I had hoped to acquire a PTFE Teflon double lip double spring seal, this is the type of seal used in the LC8 water pump and one with correct dimensions was used in the race version RC250 - R Rookie Cup engine in 2013 / 2014, part number 0760122407 SHAFT SEAL RING 12X24X7 PTFE, but unfortunately that part is not available from KTM and I was unable to source one from anywhere else.
I was able to find a much better seal that is used in KTM 450 XC water pump and many others, part number 77335057000 SHAFT SEAL RING 12x24x4 which is readily available. I also sourced a couple of Fluorocarbon / FPM material seals with stainless steel spring from www.123bearing.com part number OAS-12X24X7-FPMSS.
left - OEM, middle - 450XC, right - FPM
The OEM seals have a noticeable difference in texture from the Viton 450 XC seal, the quality became obvious when I tore the pump down. The outer seal looked to be in good shape but coolant had filled the bore past the seal, after removing the lock ring I was quite surprised that I was able to remove the seal just by grabbing the outer edge with a pair of needle nose pliers and giving it a tug. It was obvious not only had coolant been getting past the lip but also past the bore and seal.
I then removed the crankcase seal through the bore with the drill and screw method, it too came out with surprising ease.
So I debated on different ways to use he 15mm of bore depth, two XC seals doubled up on the pump side, replace the OEM with the thicker FPM, in the end I chose to use the XC seal for the crankcase side and an FPM seal for the pump side. One of the things to consider was where the seal would land on the wear bushing. I used clear silicone grease to on the seal lip surface and the shaft and a light film of RTV on the outside of the seals. The crankcase side went in as expected with more resistance then the OEM had coming out. The pump side had resistance form air trapped in the bore and pushed back out (needs weep hole), I took my time and slowly got it in and the lock ring installed.
The weep hole looks like it could be added but It would be nice to have a measurement of how much material is behind the pump face. This would need to be measured from the inside of the case, If anyone has a case split apart I would be interested in a PM ...
note: if you remove the coolant pipe from the pump housing you will want to put in a new "J770018530 - O-RING 18,5X3" that does not come with the pump kit.
After some delays I have finished rebuilding my water pump. I ended up using two different types of seals and from all that I have learned about rotary shaft seals I would not use the OEM seals.
The original seal used, part number J760122455, is a single lip seal made form something that is meant to be some type of rubber, I assume.
I had hoped to acquire a PTFE Teflon double lip double spring seal, this is the type of seal used in the LC8 water pump and one with correct dimensions was used in the race version RC250 - R Rookie Cup engine in 2013 / 2014, part number 0760122407 SHAFT SEAL RING 12X24X7 PTFE, but unfortunately that part is not available from KTM and I was unable to source one from anywhere else.
I was able to find a much better seal that is used in KTM 450 XC water pump and many others, part number 77335057000 SHAFT SEAL RING 12x24x4 which is readily available. I also sourced a couple of Fluorocarbon / FPM material seals with stainless steel spring from www.123bearing.com part number OAS-12X24X7-FPMSS.
left - OEM, middle - 450XC, right - FPM
The OEM seals have a noticeable difference in texture from the Viton 450 XC seal, the quality became obvious when I tore the pump down. The outer seal looked to be in good shape but coolant had filled the bore past the seal, after removing the lock ring I was quite surprised that I was able to remove the seal just by grabbing the outer edge with a pair of needle nose pliers and giving it a tug. It was obvious not only had coolant been getting past the lip but also past the bore and seal.
I then removed the crankcase seal through the bore with the drill and screw method, it too came out with surprising ease.
So I debated on different ways to use he 15mm of bore depth, two XC seals doubled up on the pump side, replace the OEM with the thicker FPM, in the end I chose to use the XC seal for the crankcase side and an FPM seal for the pump side. One of the things to consider was where the seal would land on the wear bushing. I used clear silicone grease to on the seal lip surface and the shaft and a light film of RTV on the outside of the seals. The crankcase side went in as expected with more resistance then the OEM had coming out. The pump side had resistance form air trapped in the bore and pushed back out (needs weep hole), I took my time and slowly got it in and the lock ring installed.
The weep hole looks like it could be added but It would be nice to have a measurement of how much material is behind the pump face. This would need to be measured from the inside of the case, If anyone has a case split apart I would be interested in a PM ...
note: if you remove the coolant pipe from the pump housing you will want to put in a new "J770018530 - O-RING 18,5X3" that does not come with the pump kit.
Last edited:
Michelle
New Member
Thanks for the information , cool write up Ed ...
...Just FYI for anyone that is seeing this tutorial for the first time, Fasteddy mentions in a post on another thread that he now uses 2 XC seals instead of the 1 XC and 1 FPM seal. He also mentions that he has done this on 3 bikes without issue. I just ordered the rebuild kit and XC seals today, if Fasteddy sees this or anyone else has any tips possibly not mentioned above i'd love the assistance! THANK YOU Fasteddy for this write-up, saved me a ton of money.
As a follow up I’ve seen a lot of diagrams of the incorrect water pump rebuild kits on the forum. This is the confirmed diagram from AOMC for a 2016 RC390, rebuild kit number 90135055110. I did the rebuild this weekend and everything appears to be working great. The first seal came out relatively easy easing a very small flat head screwdriver, for the second seal I used the screw method and it came right out. In my case oil was leaking past the crankcase seal and getting into the coolant instead of the coolant getting into the oil. Terrible oem seals and huge engineering issue by not having a weep hole, I’m surprised this hasn’t been handled with a recall at this point. My bike has around 4,600 miles. Also including some images for reference of the rebuild. Image 1 is the water pump side seal being removed (don’t worry the ring clamp pliers were just being used to show the seal, not remove it), image 2 is of the crankcase seal still installed with oil leaking past, image 3 is of all seals removed after cleaning the oil out, image 4 is with seals and propeller reinstalled. Let me know if you have any questions and apologies if the images get turned when posted, this website tends to do that sometimes unfortunately.
Hi guys,
How is this 450 XC mod holding up ?
Here in India, KTM claims that the seal is slightly different on newer models (after 2018). I have a '17 Duke 390. It took 3 attempts. It has run 2300 miles and doesn't show any signs of leakage so far. But I still dont understand what fixed the issue. Fingers crossed for now.
How is this 450 XC mod holding up ?
Here in India, KTM claims that the seal is slightly different on newer models (after 2018). I have a '17 Duke 390. It took 3 attempts. It has run 2300 miles and doesn't show any signs of leakage so far. But I still dont understand what fixed the issue. Fingers crossed for now.
kelvin2626
New Member
Hi guys, the 450XC seal is 4mm thick, which is 1.5mm lower than RC390 one. Would this be an issue?
Also how hard is it to chnage the crank side seal? It does look like we have to open up the engine. Couldn't find much info online.
Also how hard is it to chnage the crank side seal? It does look like we have to open up the engine. Couldn't find much info online.
