My turn...engine failure @ 1711 miles.

[Mlal]

LOW OIL PRESSURE !!!!!!!! Urgent

Hello all,
From India.

With great difficulties i own an RC 390 and its been a year since i have bought it and till today i have the love on riding it and have done 30000kms only through the city traffic and one long ride of 2400kms ( Chennai to Pune ). now arises the problem of low oil pressure and the coolant draining drastically. took to the service center changed the head gasket, changed the oil filter and water pump seals and the impeller . took out from service yesterday. and again it shows low oil pressure but now the coolant is not draining and its stable. Please give me some suggestions on this as i am breaking my head on this issue for 2 weeks for now .......!!!!!!!!

 

[Formula390]

Yup. I was putting through the parking lot when this happened, but a minute earlier I was WOT on the track. Could have been a very different story.

WOT would have shaved the bolt and continued to put fine metal particulate into the oil is all. The reason it quit once you pulled in the clutch was there wasn't enough power to continue to shave the bolt. This wouldn't have resulted in a "sudden engine stop at WOT on the track at speed and thrown on head" type of problem. The dealer wanting to do the filter, run it, and filter again is a reasonable enough precaution. Probably over abundance of caution, but not a terrible idea. Any small particulate should have been captured by the filter and any larger shavings would be captured by the screens. I've seen guys back sprocket bolts off and saw through their swingarms... steel bolt, aluminum swingarm. The bolt acts just like a shaper, and just took one TINY slice per pass... terrifying to look at, but wouldn't have possibly "suddenly stopped the motor". Well, at least not until his rear wheel when on walkabout with suddenly pointing in a different direction from his front. LOL

This type of thing sounds far more worrying than it is when under power. The "godawful rattling noise" was the warning that something was incorrectly making contact... but that's all it was doing really. The bolt couldn't have come out all the way and resulting in a loose part in the engine (that can cause some problems with steel suddenly becoming lodged into hardened gears in a transmission) but even then, usually what ACTUALLY happens is the gear explodes, or the clutch won't hold, so either the engine quits resulting in a clutch overload, or possibly a rear tire slide.

These bikes don't have the power or speed under power to throw us on our heads (knock on wood) say like the 250 or 500cc two stroke GP bikes or days gone by would. Back in the day when all you had was 0.002 seconds between a sudden surge of power, from the bike going WAY lean and rocketing forward, and then suddenly seizing... solid.

 

[reenmachine]

Here's what it looked like when they got in there. Minimal material lost off of the bolt head, so I'm not really worried about collateral damage. Looks like the bolt is starting to bend though, and there may have been a risk of it eventually breaking off vs. just continuing to slowly wear away. Glad I didn't find out. Either way, it's disconcerting that things are rattling loose in there.

 

[TennisFreak]

F_ck this bike, I'm reading way too many bad things here and all over internet.

Mine is going for sale.

Damn!!!

 

[Formula390]

F_ck this bike, I'm reading way too many bad things here and all over internet.

Mine is going for sale.

Damn!!!

I'll give ya' $2k for it. I'll even pick it up.

 

[=maz=]

F_ck this bike, I'm reading way too many bad things here and all over internet.

Mine is going for sale.

Damn!!!

Wishing I had done this instead of racing this bike.
From my experience a 2-stroke RGV would offer more reliability and less cost/maintenance than this engine.

 

[simpletty]

gglad i have 4 more years of extended warranty....

 

[=maz=]

gglad i have 4 more years of extended warranty....

I bet.
Not only was that option not available, there is no warranty on Race Bikes.

 

[Formula390]

I bet.
Not only was that option not available, there is no warranty on Race Bikes.

No warranty on racers in AUSTRALIA... in the US, KTM USA is covering warranty claims. We are seeing head gaskets being covered OUT of warranty as well. Jeff Frazier was out of warranty, and his racer popped the head gasket 2 months past warranty end. Was fully covered.

 

[jjtard]

No warranty on racers in AUSTRALIA... in the US, KTM USA is covering warranty claims. We are seeing head gaskets being covered OUT of warranty as well. Jeff Frazier was out of warranty, and his racer popped the head gasket 2 months past warranty end. Was fully covered.

Glad to hear Matt. I just turned over 1k and have no issues so far. All valves were in tolerance at time of inspection too ( I read most vavles are tight). Keeping my fingers crossed she holds up and turns out to be a good little purchase!!

 

[Formula390]

My valves were all in spec as well. It's important to note that the forum is a sounding board for problems regularly... this results in people having a false sense of "these things are a POS and falling apart" but what we don't see if the hundreds of forum members who every day DON'T have any problems with their bike. Comparing the RC390 to say, a gixxer tho, is comparing apples to oranges. A Gixxer is assembly line assembled in Japan and has scads of robots building the things. The RC390 is made by Bajaja, by hand, in a 3rd world country with workers who have limited training and wide tolerance for QC issues being missed. Items like loktite being forgotten, or a bolt not being tightened to spec, or lubrication being skipped, or heads being milled without proper coolant so they are "pre warped" ALREADY, well... these are to be expected. The point is, the issues are all pretty well understood at this point, and at least so far, KTM USA is being responsible and addressing the issues. The cooling system is a known weak link on the bike. If folks want to avoid the issue, then make SURE your cooling system is as good as you can make it. Update your cooling system components (radiator cap and fan) as a precaution, but know, KNOW, that you might pop a head gasket at some point even if you do everything right... just because when Reyansh ran your head through the surface grinder he took too deep a cut, or didn't have the coolant on enough, or didn't let the part cool enough prior to his final finish pass, or who knows... The RC390 (and the rest of the 300's) are bargain bikes, with corners cut on costs. These are the byproduct of those decisions... if one doesn't want to have to deal with that... go get a gixxer 600. {shrug}

 

[unicorn_violence]

My valves were all in spec as well. It's important to note that the forum is a sounding board for problems regularly... this results in people having a false sense of "these things are a POS and falling apart" but what we don't see if the hundreds of forum members who every day DON'T have any problems with their bike. Comparing the RC390 to say, a gixxer tho, is comparing apples to oranges. A Gixxer is assembly line assembled in Japan and has scads of robots building the things. The RC390 is made by Bajaja, by hand, in a 3rd world country with workers who have limited training and wide tolerance for QC issues being missed. Items like loktite being forgotten, or a bolt not being tightened to spec, or lubrication being skipped, or heads being milled without proper coolant so they are "pre warped" ALREADY, well... these are to be expected. The point is, the issues are all pretty well understood at this point, and at least so far, KTM USA is being responsible and addressing the issues. The cooling system is a known weak link on the bike. If folks want to avoid the issue, then make SURE your cooling system is as good as you can make it. Update your cooling system components (radiator cap and fan) as a precaution, but know, KNOW, that you might pop a head gasket at some point even if you do everything right... just because when Reyansh ran your head through the surface grinder he took too deep a cut, or didn't have the coolant on enough, or didn't let the part cool enough prior to his final finish pass, or who knows... The RC390 (and the rest of the 300's) are bargain bikes, with corners cut on costs. These are the byproduct of those decisions... if one doesn't want to have to deal with that... go get a gixxer 600. {shrug}

Since we have all become aware of all the QC issues with this bike, and how many people have had issues with their RC, i wonder if it wouldn't be a bad idea to start a thread of owners that haven't had any issues at all. that way forum members and visitors can see a contrast of both success and failure stories with this bike, as well as any preventative measures done by owners that seem to help. from how much ive pushed mine since i bought it, i still haven't had any issues.

 

[jjtard]

Since we have all become aware of all the QC issues with this bike, and how many people have had issues with their RC, i wonder if it wouldn't be a bad idea to start a thread of owners that haven't had any issues at all. that way forum members and visitors can see a contrast of both success and failure stories with this bike, as well as any preventative measures done by owners that seem to help. from how much ive pushed mine since i bought it, i still haven't had any issues.

Good idea UV....+1

 

[simpletty]

Since we have all become aware of all the QC issues with this bike, and how many people have had issues with their RC, i wonder if it wouldn't be a bad idea to start a thread of owners that haven't had any issues at all. that way forum members and visitors can see a contrast of both success and failure stories with this bike, as well as any preventative measures done by owners that seem to help. from how much ive pushed mine since i bought it, i still haven't had any issues.

I agree with that thread and also with Matt---you always hear about the bad before you hear anything good.....I was recently non-stop bitching about the bike....but that has changed since I have got it back, upgraded the suspension and tracked it. Its just fun and if it breaks, whatever...I purchased 4 years of extended warranty from an insurance company that said nothing about racing the bike voiding the warranty. My dealer also says race it we dont care, the dash says so...we will fix it. I think they kinda bent over after all the mistakes they made and promised that. Hey I understand if it gets tossed and broken---its on me. But if there are head gasket issues or engine failures i feel confident that I have the coverage, parts that need to be replaced from wear - to be expected. Every time i take a bolt out---it gets loctite and torqued back in. Other than the steering head nut, everything has stayed together

 

[=maz=]

I'm so glad for you if you live in the USA and have a bike that has held together...fantastic.
I am also happy for all the USA owners who have support from your national importer, great for you...I will know within a couple of weeks where we in Australia fit in this issue.
However, the idea that owners should just accept the QC/QA issues because Ramesh made it is an unbelievable statement to make.
Who is comparing the RC390 to a Gixxer-600? Compare it to a Ninja-300 and tell me why the Kwaka lasts for SEASONS without breaking despite mods and crashes but a High-end product like RC-390(even made in India) can't last a single season without rebuilding it. Sure the bikes are totally different to ride but at least one of the 2 lasts.
If it is a lack of training or quality control at the factory why am I expected to just eat that shit sandwich when KTM have a responsibility to ensure their product is as good as it should be...not just say, "It's made in India so we can maximize our profits, so HAHAHA sucked in stupid!!".

In my case I purchased the bikes(yes 2 of them) to race. The racing I would be doing in Australia is Production Racing with very limited modifications allowed to the motor. I fitted a Pipe from KTM Australia, an air-filter and got the dealer to re-map the ECU to match the pipe and filter...THAT's it. No PCV, no Dyno-tune, no mods for performance...nothing.
Fitted a 1.6bar Rad-cap from the sponsors here on the forum as well as a SPAL fan to keep the bike cool after reading this forum.
Not even 2000km(1200 miles) and the head gasket went on mine(my wife's bike had already done a head gasket at this stage with less KM's on it)...so I had the head and barrel machined, fitted the gaskets from Commonwealth and torqued to spec(my Mechanic did this all while staying in touch with the dealer about torque settings and recommendations for procedure).
The bike lasted less than 30minutes on track(at testing pace not race pace) before it was gone again.
I know of at least one other RC racer in my state that has his blow 3 times in the same time frame and he also used the gaskets purchased through the forum sponsors and runs a SPAL fan and 1.6 Bar rad-cap.

I have thrown my hands up in the air.
I have contacted KTM Australia and they have asked to inspect the bike. They have it. They will report back when they have completed their assessment.
In the mean time...my first ever season of racing is over. My chance to take a 3rd place trophy home in my inaugural year is gone. My faith in the bike is gone. I have little faith that KTM will look after us and that leaves a massive hole in my wallet for little/no gain.
When I purchased the bikes it was with a 3 year plan in place to offset the initial cost of setting up both new bikes. Didn't last 6months before reliability issues tapped out the race budget for the team.
The bike is SO much fun to ride...but with reliability issues like it has it is not a bike to own unless you are a mechanic/engineer/manufacturer-of-parts/dealer or someone else with a vested interest in the bikes sales.
At the moment this venture will have cost close to $30k-AU($23078US). The dilemma I have is...if I stop now and just throw these bikes away it has only been a waste of $30000 dollars...if I keep going, where will the costs stop?
A modern, fuel injected, 4 stroke engine without modifications for performance should be able to race in a production series for at least 1 season without ANY problems not caused by crashes or owner error. It should not require more maintenance than a 2-stroke engine from the 80's.

I would love to see a thread started where racers of unmodified RC's can state all their trouble free fun times and nil-costs with only a reasonable amount of time spent on the tools...but if KTM-USA is supporting racers then it will not be an accurate picture of the issues the rest of us face at this moment in time...though I really hope that changes for all of the owners not in the USA.

 

[KTMGene390]

I'm so glad for you if you live in the USA and have a bike that has held together...fantastic.
I am also happy for all the USA owners who have support from your national importer, great for you...I will know within a couple of weeks where we in Australia fit in this issue.
However, the idea that owners should just accept the QC/QA issues because Ramesh made it is an unbelievable statement to make.
Who is comparing the RC390 to a Gixxer-600? Compare it to a Ninja-300 and tell me why the Kwaka lasts for SEASONS without breaking despite mods and crashes but a High-end product like RC-390(even made in India) can't last a single season without rebuilding it. Sure the bikes are totally different to ride but at least one of the 2 lasts.
If it is a lack of training or quality control at the factory why am I expected to just eat that shit sandwich when KTM have a responsibility to ensure their product is as good as it should be...not just say, "It's made in India so we can maximize our profits, so HAHAHA sucked in stupid!!".

In my case I purchased the bikes(yes 2 of them) to race. The racing I would be doing in Australia is Production Racing with very limited modifications allowed to the motor. I fitted a Pipe from KTM Australia, an air-filter and got the dealer to re-map the ECU to match the pipe and filter...THAT's it. No PCV, no Dyno-tune, no mods for performance...nothing.
Fitted a 1.6bar Rad-cap from the sponsors here on the forum as well as a SPAL fan to keep the bike cool after reading this forum.
Not even 2000km(1200 miles) and the head gasket went on mine(my wife's bike had already done a head gasket at this stage with less KM's on it)...so I had the head and barrel machined, fitted the gaskets from Commonwealth and torqued to spec(my Mechanic did this all while staying in touch with the dealer about torque settings and recommendations for procedure).
The bike lasted less than 30minutes on track(at testing pace not race pace) before it was gone again.
I know of at least one other RC racer in my state that has his blow 3 times in the same time frame and he also used the gaskets purchased through the forum sponsors and runs a SPAL fan and 1.6 Bar rad-cap.

I have thrown my hands up in the air.
I have contacted KTM Australia and they have asked to inspect the bike. They have it. They will report back when they have completed their assessment.
In the mean time...my first ever season of racing is over. My chance to take a 3rd place trophy home in my inaugural year is gone. My faith in the bike is gone. I have little faith that KTM will look after us and that leaves a massive hole in my wallet for little/no gain.
When I purchased the bikes it was with a 3 year plan in place to offset the initial cost of setting up both new bikes. Didn't last 6months before reliability issues tapped out the race budget for the team.
The bike is SO much fun to ride...but with reliability issues like it has it is not a bike to own unless you are a mechanic/engineer/manufacturer-of-parts/dealer or someone else with a vested interest in the bikes sales.
At the moment this venture will have cost close to $30k-AU($23078US). The dilemma I have is...if I stop now and just throw these bikes away it has only been a waste of $30000 dollars...if I keep going, where will the costs stop?
A modern, fuel injected, 4 stroke engine without modifications for performance should be able to race in a production series for at least 1 season without ANY problems not caused by crashes or owner error. It should not require more maintenance than a 2-stroke engine from the 80's.

I would love to see a thread started where racers of unmodified RC's can state all their trouble free fun times and nil-costs with only a reasonable amount of time spent on the tools...but if KTM-USA is supporting racers then it will not be an accurate picture of the issues the rest of us face at this moment in time...though I really hope that changes for all of the owners not in the USA.

IMHO, if you have not done so, I would check your A/F ratio across the RPM range on the dyno or preferably install a wideband o2 sensor setup (if rules allow). If your bike is running too lean this could explain your problems. I understand you have remapped the ECU in place of a PCV etc, but you need to verify.

Also worth noting: If the head gaskets you have installed are thinner than stock (machining the head & cylinder surfaces effects this too) will raise the compression ratio generating even more heat. I would check the water pump propeller shaft bolt as well.

 

[=maz=]

IMHO, if you have not done so, I would check your A/F ratio across the RPM range on the dyno or preferably install a wideband o2 sensor setup (if rules allow). If your bike is running too lean this could explain your problems. I understand you have remapped the ECU in place of a PCV etc, but you need to verify.

Also worth noting: If the head gaskets you have installed are thinner than stock (machining the head & cylinder surfaces effects this too) will raise the compression ratio generating even more heat. I would check the water pump propeller shaft bolt as well.

Thanks for the reply and advice Gene.
I will look at everything you have suggested.

 

[jjtard]

I bought the first 2016 my dealer got in. Hate to hear all the probs people are having. Is it possible the 2016's a better sled in comparison to early production models? It's still too soon to tell for me, I just turned 1K on mine.

 

[unicorn_violence]

The bike lasted less than 30minutes on track(at testing pace not race pace) before it was gone again.
I know of at least one other RC racer in my state that has his blow 3 times in the same time frame and he also used the gaskets purchased through the forum sponsors and runs a SPAL fan and 1.6 Bar rad-cap..

Dang Maz that's a huge letdown. sorry to hear about your troubles with this bike. i don't want to make it sound like the QC issues are ok and accepted. this bike does seem to have more issues than the other 300 bikes. maybe the engineering of the bike would have been more suited for production methods that don't involve hand building the bike(but then of course cost goes up exponentially, gotta love globalization), giving that it seems to be a high strung bike with a high strung motor.
i think the majority of racers on this forum are not sponsored by ktmusa, or ktm in general, so i don't think there would be a lot of bias if any.i think at this point everyone just wants to make sure they are doing the right steps to keep the bike running.
im curious on making this thread though, cause it could possibly shed more light on what is working and what isn't.

Also worth noting: If the head gaskets you have installed are thinner than stock (machining the head & cylinder surfaces effects this too) will raise the compression ratio generating even more heat. I would check the water pump propeller shaft bolt as well.

i will say that out of the 5 rc390's that race in production class in Colorado, only 1 has had a blown engine. another had its clutch fail (moto america racer/heavy used race bike), and the last had a water gasket fail. not sure about the preventative measures done by 2 of the bikes, but i do know that one that blew had its head milled and a thinner gasket put on. maybe there are some similarities? i'm not sure exactly what was done but maybe the raised compression ratio wasn't fully accounted for?
another racer has the bike running richer/cooler with a pcv and exhaust and pushes the bike crazy hard(getting first place and such). he has yet to have issues.don't quote me exactly on this info, but a few mentioned are forum members so they might be able to chime in.

same with me but no pcv yet. just 100% stock on the engine side. i do not push it as hard as the other riders though. once the season is over, i do plan on getting the exhaust and pcv, do a full dyno and hopefully keep the bike running richer to avoid any future issues.

 

[tecknojoe]

Hey Maz, were you watching your temps while you were on track?

My motor blew on a 95 degree day while I was in a training session. I was drafting someone for 30 minutes straight before it went kaboom. In hindsight, I should have been watching my temps because I've noticed the temps increase when I do too much drafting on my R3 as well. So now I'll pull out of the draft when I see the temp start to creep up.

My motor didn't just blow a headgasket, it full on grenaded. I should have it back soon though.