Exhaust development work

[Formula390]

Any news ?? Bump

Update. It's looking like I'll have time on the dyno on Wednesday afternoon. I spoke with chief tech and he's very interested in doing the testing with me himself (they won't just turn the dyno over to me cart blanc without adult supervision (a constant requirement from Teh Wifey anyway) but I should have a few hours to get a solid baseline and then start testing all the permutations of the designs.

That's part of the problem with the development. There's no fewer than at least seven different theoretical/mathematical models... So I'm having to sorta assume any one of them is "best" and test them all... The spreadsheet has a total of 29 different configurations with total system length, primary header diameter, primary header length, primary cone length, taper angle, secondary length, and secondary taper. For this round I'm going with the stock existing primary header size. From the looks of it, KTM got that not correct. Some models show it's the right length, some show it's too short, and one even came out once calculated with it being WAY to long (I have SERIOUS doubts about that one so I'm not testing it) so, like I said, lots and LOTS of testing...

Of course, I also don't yet have the PCv in hand. That'll be IMPERATIVE to get the most gains. Without it, one could likely expect similar to stock performance, with more noise. It's CERTAINLY going to sound much throatier (is that even a real word?) and visceral of a machine. I had a similar design on a Hawk GT racer many years ago and that exhaust was... Dreamy! LOL The deep booming bop Bop BOP sound felt like... I dunno... An A-10 Warthog... At WFO it was apparently a little terrifying to my fellow racers. They could hear me RIGHT on em and they would frequently and up making mistakes thinking I was closer to them than I actually was, they'd push too hard, and lowside or go wide allowing me to get past. LOL

From the first moment I heard about KTM making the RC390 I knew I had to have one, and I had to make an exhaust for it! :-D

So... Stay tuned! Dyno day is ALMOST finally here!

{hop} {hop} {hop} So excited... :-D

 

[paige]

thanks for the update!!!

 

[Formula390]

Arghhhh. I got a hint dropped at me the other day that the dealer may AGAIN be delaying dyno testing. ARghhhhh! So, I've been in contact with another guy, this one here in Austin, who has a dynojet and we are set for testing on his dyno now on Saturday the 4th. I may still get to test on the dealers dyno on Wednesday, but if not, at least I've got a confirmed dyno test day without any worry about being delayed yet again. I get it, the dealer has some valid concerns about letting me loose on their dyno for a day... tech time is expensive, and their insurance won't cover a non-employee being let loose on the machine. I'm not really entirely sure what they are thinking... or what their exact apprehensions are... or why there seems to still be one delay after another after another. So worst case testing will occur on the 4th... Like with Chad with his engine kit work, it's just not even worth considering releasing a performance product without corroborating evidence for dyno results. I'm also completely convinced that releasing without corresponding ECU mapping, is risking customers blowing up their engines from a lean mixture condition.

Not having my own dyno is getting ridiculously inconvenient. I can't quite justify the expense of buying a dynojet. Even used ones are far too expensive for the limited use I would get out of them... but I have ordered some bearings and have been researching building my own as well... That would likely have to wait until fall or winter to move high enough up the product development list. Depending on my dealer for dyno time isn't a viable long term solution it's seeming however.

 

[Backmarker]

Good luck with the test, looking forward to the results.

 

[ToraTora]

Have you made friends with Micah over at AF1? They now have an Austin location too. They are way into racing small displacement bikes. Super cool folks too.

 

[Bagwell]

There was a micah that responded to this thread already I think.

 

[ToraTora]

It wouldn't surprise me if it was the same Micah--it would be pleasant though--the AF1 cats are super cool.

 

[micah360]

different Micah... I'm in Colorado... sorry.

I think there is actually another Micah on this forum too. Weird... because I never meet any other Micah's (I don't get out much).

 

[micahpearlman]

different Micah... I'm in Colorado... sorry.

I think there is actually another Micah on this forum too. Weird... because I never meet any other Micah's (I don't get out much).

I'm in Alameda, NorCal. Yeah don't get many Micah's


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Formula390]

Just wanted to give a shout out / thanks to Chad! I needed a PCv for my dyno testing this Saturday, and he sold me his last one available of the pre-production units to help me out! So, thank-you sir. You rock!!!

As for the rest of y'all.... Nyaa Nyaaah Naa Naa Nyaaaaaaaa Nyaa! LOL

 

[dobr]

Good now get your ass to work![emoji6]

 

[Formula390]

Good now get your ass to work![emoji6]

I am, believe me!!!

I actually placed an ad and shouted out to a bunch of local folks yesterday looking to hire somebody to help... as I had a little "oooopsie" in the shop yesterday late morning:

My left hand is damn near useless right now. I can close it a LITTLE bit now, but not much... and my middle finger from the last knuckle is about 2x normal size (was about 2.5x last night) tho it's looking like I won't loose the nail at least. I've been trying to keep it drown in neosporin and bandaged... as best as I can... but keeping a bandage on ones palm is.. well... fscking impossible.

At least it's my left hand and left middle finger... so no significant impact to my love life and I won't be rendered effectively mute. Teh Wifey wasn't the LEAST bit sympathetic either when I came into the house with blood running down my arm, blood on my face, shirt, shorts, and shoes. Even with pressure applied it was gushing like a damn headwound. All I heard from her was "What the HELL did you do THIS time?!!!!" followed shortly there after with "Get over here on the Tile, Dumbass! So, how many stitches do you think you are going to need this time?" It's good to have a partner that "gets" you...

Anyway, I'm hoping however I can find somebody to help out in the shop today or tomorrow. I've had a few folks respond, but so far only two look even remotely possible... but getting much accomplished in the shop yesterday and so far today has been.... problematic. I am scheduled to go to the dealer in San Antonio tomorrow morning and get the Akrapovic map put on my ECU. I can't ride currently, but if necessary I'll just have Teh Wifey help me load the bike up and I'll just drive it down to SA.

 

[Treachery]

FAck. That's ugly. I suspect that's an unplanned introduction of a screwdriver?

 

[Bagwell]

Ouch!!!!!!!

 

[Formula390]

FAck. That's ugly. I suspect that's an unplanned introduction of a screwdriver?

It was an accident in the shop, but not with a screwdriver. It was the spring on the stock shock of all stupid things. When I was releasing the pressure on the press the shock managed to snap the anchor bolt I was holding it in place with (warning, don't just pick some random bolt that fits in a 10mm hole... doh!!!) and everything very suddenly went lots of different directions. I still don't know exactly what shot into my hand. I found 2/3rds of the remnants of the anchor bolt. Still ****** hurts like a mother. Funny enough, the neosporin I've been putting on it has a "Plus pain reliever":


I totally thought the "pain relief" claim would be utter and complete BS. It's not! It's the difference between agony (typical guy, we are all nothing but a big baby when we have a boo boo) and being able to close my hand about 1/2 and being able to put some pressure on my palm. So I've still only got 1.25 hands, but at least I'm able to use the hand SOMEWHAT and get some stuff done. I actually told the wife to pick some more of it up next time she's at the drug store as I am going to keep a tube of it in the toolbox from now on!

------------------

On the development front, I had a few guys respond to my ad... I had two of them come out and do some standard weld test on the TIG... One guy made beautiful professional looking welds, but he was an Utter and Complete Ass who I didn't want to be around one more second of my time left on this earth... life is just too damn short to hire somebody when you can realize "I hate this guy" after being around them less than 20 minutes... so I thanked him and said "I'll let you know." and promptly lost his contact details... the second one that I had come out today is a great guy, but his TIG welding is lacking professional experience. He does have sheet metal fabrication experience tho, so I said I'd contact him after the weekend. He may work out. Worst case I can have him cut the cones out and roll 'em on the slip roll, and I'll do the machining and welding once I get fully into production. I was hoping to find somebody with sheet metal and welding experience, and he's the closest match, but I've also only had the ad up for 12 hours at this point. So my search goes on for finding help, but at this point I'd say I'm 95% ready for the Dyno... there are a few tiny things left to do, which I believe I should be able to wrap that all up tomorrow quite easily.

 

[Formula390]

Are you KIDDING me?!?!!!!

Just got a message from the guy I've scheduled dyno time with for Saturday:
"Hay man, Just got back in town yesterday,and unfortunately something is wrong with our Dyno. Been messing with it all morning, but looks like it might have been hit by lightning. I'm sending the power stack into Dyno for service, and not sure when it will be back?"

 

[Ryanthegreat1]

Just can't catch a break!

 

[Treachery]

We feel your pain. Go scrub on a puppy or something.

With your good hand.

 

[Formula390]

Progress! Heart attack abated...

 

[Formula390]

It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed.

OK, LOTS of data and developments since yesterday. Sorry about not getting back to everyone sooner... I got an INCREDIBLE migraine from yesterdays testing, most likely due to Welders Metal Fume Fever due to Zinc heavy metal poisoning. In the name of expediency and ease of material procurement I used some EMT electrical conduit for my baffle material. Well, this is Zinc coated. I'd removed all the Zinc from the OD of the conduit, but failed to realize there must have also been Zinc coating on the ID of the conduit. For the day of dyno testing, I was basically standing in direct path of the exhaust, and as the exhaust heated up, the Zinc must have fumigated, which I then breathed in... all day long. I thought I was just becoming dehydrated (due to insurance purposes I was not allowed to stand in the building while the dyno was being run, so I was just outside the bay door, in the July Texas Sun... All. Day. Long. Anyway... nobody cares about that... they wanna see results.

So, what happened?

A LOT of this:

but y'all knew that.

Show me the DATA!

So, what are the results. In summary, a failure. Failing publicly is never easy. Admitting you failed doesn't come easy to some. I don't have any ego attached to the design. It's not an extension of -=ME=- as a person. I console myself in realizing... if this was easy, anybody could do it. I do have a few options, and I'm interested in the feedback from those interested in an aftermarket exhaust as to what their thoughts and feelings are... but first, the data!!!

So what are we looking at here?

I'll explain.
- Run_003: Baseline. This is completely stock. Bone. No modifications or changes. 624 miles on the clock, initial service performed. Run in with MotoMan breakin (run it hard, seat those rings in GOOD!) This produced 39HP on that dyno. Note, not all dyno's produce the same number. The point is CONSISTENCY so while on this dyno with this test bike made 39HP (their report is that their dyno produces conservative numbers), the same bike with everything the same might make 41HP on another. It's not the number, so much as it's what does it show after changes have been performed. The point being, you can't compare Dyno X to Dyno Y results. You can really only compare Dyno X to Dyno X with run vs run. Everybody up to speed, ok, let's start making changes and testing!

- Run_016: This is with the Akrapovic ECU map applied. Nothing else changed. Stock intake trunk in place. Stock airbox lid. Stock air filter. Stock exhaust. Stock stock stock except for the ECU change. This produced more torque, and more HP. It produced +3 HP and more power across the board. The stock mapping for emissions is lean. We've seen those dyno results and know the problems associated with the stock ECU map, and with the Akrapovic map. This is why we all have been waiting, begging, for the Power Commander V. The map Chad has developed for the PCv (who I got my PCv from) is built on top of the Akrapovic ECU map, so to use his map, I needed to Akrapovic map on my ECU. We can likely consider this another baseline view.

- Run_025: This was the best of the runs of all the combinations. Well, we've got a buttload of more torque and HP down low, but peak HP is lacking. In fact we are lacking both torque and HP where it matters most. So what changed and what happened. After the Akrapovic ECU map baseline was run, the bike was taken off the dyno and a lot of changes happened. The airbox lid was modded, the intake trunk was ditched. The stock air filter was swapped for the K&N filter. The Power Commander was added. We started testing my exhaust designs. Chad (cjwell) has pointed out, rightly, that "You aren't comparing apples to apples. You need to test the stock exhaust with all those modifications against your design." and he's completely correct. To be fair, I was paying a LOT for every run, so every datapoint cost me $$$. Still, that's one I might have considered running prior to bolting on my exhaust. I should note, I wasn't trying to test a final design here. I had 7 different megaphone configurations (various lengths, taper angles, and primary big end diameter) and 3 different primary header extension combinations, for 21 total test points, plus a clone I'd made of the GPR Powercone (which I figured would be my primary competition) that I'd also welded up to match the measured size/design as I wanted to see how my designs fared against it (yes, it has a cat and db killer, and I tested without those two as it's reported removal of both is necessary for maximum power. In the end, I found the "powerclone" as I took to calling it, produced only 36hp, or 3hp down from my bone stock configuration, and 6hp down from the ECU map basline run, were as my best performing design was generally 0.5hp down from bone stock (aka Run_003) and 3.5hp down from the Akrapovic baseline (aka run_016). Total and complete failure of my designs. This is why we test tho. I have a LOT of graphs and dyno data, but in the end, it comes down to that one graph. So, where did those HP and torque gains come from? Almost certainly NOT form the exhaust. These are almost certainly due to the airbox lid mod and the K&N filter. The exhaust plays a part in that, but it's almost certain one would see this with any exhaust, doesn't matter which. Stock, Akrapovic, Powercone, Straight Pipe Header with no muffler. My exhaust design played no part of the HP and Torque improvements that we are seeing down low. That's all airbox.

What about AFR / Tune?

Some will ask (Yeah but what's your AFR) and that's been gone over by Chad and I. I did not tune for each combination. I used the "Chad PCv map" with the Akrapovic base on the ECU. All my designs were consistently running a pretty flat AFR of 13.2 to 13.7. Lean. But they were all consistently lean the same amount. Here is a data graph with AFR of my Pipe #1 with my three different header extension lengths:

So what are we seeing here.
Run_025: Can 1 - Extension short.
Run_034: Can 1 - Extension medium
Run_043: Can 1 - Extension long

The AFR for each of the can designs and lengths look all pretty much exactly like this, between 13.2 and 13.7. So, the PCv isn't tuned to the design combinations I was trying, but they were all off the same amount. So while it wasn't producing the peak HP it could potentially, it's not THAT far off from what it could do. It's low, but were talking most likely faction of a HP, not 1, 2, or 3hp differences here.

Why Test different lengths for the primary header?

The math predicted a few primary header lengths, and so I tested each can design, with all three extension lengths. In the end, Can 1 - Extension short was my best performing combination. Can 4 - Extension long had a higher peak HP, but it took a hit on torque across the board and HP down low.

In the end, the results show my primary header lengths were still too short. Why didn't I test longer. Well 1, the math predictions showed I was testing what I thought would be correct, and 2) I was limited by what lengths I could try and get it to fit in the stock exhaust location. Any longer of a length, is going to require some SERIOUS welding and labor, to try and get that extra length of header into that confined space, without impacting performance. Chad will yell at me for this (and I and NOT comparing to myself) but what it's going to take to get the extra primary header length into that confined space is something akin to the Britten V1000 exhaust. Arguably one of THE most gorgeous motorcycles ever made, light years ahead of it's time, and an excellent example of motorcycle exhaust spaghetti where John had to bend and shape his headers in twists and turns to get the header lengths correct to all be the right lengths and meet at the right location.


So, what's the take-away?

Well, my designs failed to meet the design objectives of:
1) More Power
2) More Sound
3) Retain Stock Exhaust footprint and exit

Y'all on the forum want all three. What my testing has shown is, it's reasonably easy to get any two: How? From testing and various data, like so:
1) More Power, More Sound, Lose Stock Footprint - Buy the $900 Akrapovic. You don't retain the stock exit, and have a big can on the side, but you get more power, and more sound. This is the clear choice for most racers.
2) More Power, Stock Footprint, Not Louder - Gut the cat out of your stock exhaust. This is free (assuming you are or know a welder who will do it for you) and just involves a lot of cutting, banging, and welding back up.
3) Stock Footprint, More Sound, the Same or LESS Power - This is the bane of slip-on "performance" exhaust. We've all seen the squids out there with loud pipes save lives, as you pass them with your quite stock exhaust system. The $450 GPR system is effectively (at least according to my dyno runs) an expensive noise maker, which hurts overall engine performance. If someone has dyno data that says otherwise, I'd love to see it, but I've LOOKED and everything I've found seems to confirm my dyno results. The designs I tried, well... they failed. I couldn't get a combination which I've tried yet which retains the stock location, produces more sound, AND produces more power. If it were easy, everyone would do it.

More testing? Maybe. I dunno.

I'm not sure. I have some soul searching to do. There are two (possibly three) dyno tests I can still do.
1) Put the stock exhaust back on and test that with the other mods. I skipped this, but at this point ALL it will prove is that my design didn't work even more.
2) Measure and test for longer primary header. I can measure from the primary header to where the CAT in the stock can starts. This will give me a good length for the stock primary header. I also need to get a measurement from the end of the stock primary header piece to the resonant chamber on the Akrapovic. If these measurements differ, I might need to test both, thus the possibly three dyno tests. This is where my design seems to have primarily failed. The can1 design might still outperform stock, and maybe match the Akrapovic system, but the question is, what to do with all that extra header length??? Getting that all stuffed into that small a space will NOT be easy, if it's even possible at all!

Options for moving forward:

Well, as I see it, there are really only four options remaining to me:
Option 1 - Go sit in a hole in the backyard and rock myself to sleep as I cry.

Option 2 - See if I can spaghetti that extra length into the stock exhaust space/location. I don't know if this is possible... much less how much it would cost to manufacture. It wouldn't be cheap. Certainly not in the $399-450 price point. There's just too much labor in trying to get that all welded up, in a professional production process. I'm NOT going to manufacture something that looks like Billy Bob stuck it together with a battery powered stick welder! If I can't produce something that rivals the Big Boys I'm not interested in doing it. That means I'd most likely be in the realms of the price point of the Akrapovic $900 system possibly +-150. I don't know what the market will bear but, I would think if I could produce a system that matched the Akrapovic system (the best performing exhaust currently) performance -=AND=- retained the stock location, -=AND=- made more sound (but not TOO much) that would justify a higher price point. Probably not by much tho. I know racers would like it so they didn't have a can on the side to be damaged, and street guys would like it because it retains the stock profile but gains HP and sound. Is this possible. I have no idea!!! Maybe. I need to figure out if I even want to move forward in trying to attempt this.

Option 3 - Ditch the idea of retaining the stock location. Move the pipe out to the side of the bike or possibly some other location (I know some have asked about a high exit) and compete head to head with Arrow and Akrapovic. This would be a possibility if testing showed the longer primary ends up producing more HP, and if there's just no way (physically or financially) to make option 2 work. If it doesn't meet at three design goals, but it still produces a quality product that'll compete... Maybe.

Option 4 - Ditch working on exhaust, at least for now. I have to decide if I want to even try going forward with the exhaust development, or move on to my next targeted development areas for real Frame Sliders and heavy duty case covers.

So... that's it. The bare truth. I tried, and I publicly failed. I may recover the exhaust development work with more testing, and it may be possible to financially fabricate a quality product that works (rather than just makes a lot of noise)... but I also might just grab the loud handle, dust myself off, and move on to the next thing. I'm interested in feedback, and what y'alls thoughts are.